1 Cent 1859

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Bill in Burl
Posts: 633
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am
Location: Golden Horseshoe, ONT

Re: 1 Cent 1859

Post by Bill in Burl » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:51 pm

Definately an 1859/8 .. or "wide 9 over 8 as it's sometimes called. It has been cleaned and has some pits that appear to be corrosion pits (but maybe just dings) on the obverse. I wouldn't spend the $20-$25 to have it certified... it's easy to see it's a 9/8.
Bill in Burl

momomomo
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:59 pm

Re: 1 Cent 1859

Post by momomomo » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:54 pm

Brass color probably come from a cleaning product.

Sunopera
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:48 pm

Re: 1 Cent 1859

Post by Sunopera » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:38 am

The coin is from my old house as I said earlier. I discover it between the original flooring on the second floor with other coins. This coin was probably sitting there for over a century. The house was built in 1832. I handle the coin since 1995. I did not use any cleaning product and there is not such domestic product that can give a brass color to an alloy.

On the other hand, some chemical cleaning products modify the molecules as ammoniac do for silver. The brass alloy composition is specific and real alloy brass does not corrode but oxide (dark black color because of the copper and zinc). The pits as you said is the mark of the missing lead that was used to produce this brass alloy. At that time, they had a tendency to use more lead than required.

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties. In comparison, bronze is principally an alloy of copper and tin. Brass has a muted yellow color, which is somewhat similar to gold. It is relatively resistant to tarnishing.

Brass has higher malleability than bronze. The relatively low melting point of brass (900 to 940°C, depending on composition) and its flow characteristics make it a relatively easy material to cast. By varying the proportions of copper and zinc, the properties of the brass can be changed, allowing hard and soft brasses. The density of brass is approximately 8400 to 8730 kilograms per cubic meter (equivalent to 8.4 to 8.73 grams per cubic centimeter).

To enhance the coins machinability of brass, lead was often added in concentrations of around 2% to 4% and sometimes much higher. Since lead has a lower melting point than the other constituents of the brass; it tends to migrate towards the grain boundaries in the form of globules as it cools from casting (pits). The pattern the globules form on the surface of the brass increases the available lead surface area, which in turn affects the degree of leaching. In addition, cutting operations can smear the lead globules over the surface. These effects can lead to significant lead leaching from brasses of comparatively to lead content.

Some of those 1859 coins were made "alpha brasses" with less than 35% zinc; malleable and easely workable at cold (used in pressing). They contain only one phase, with face-centered cubic crystal structure. Prince's metal or Prince Rupert's metal is a type the "alpha brass" containing 75% copper and 25% zinc. Due to its beautiful yellow color, it is used as an imitation of gold for the coins. The alloy was named after Prince Rupert of the Rhine.

Sunopera
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:48 pm

Re: 1 Cent 1859

Post by Sunopera » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:12 am

Some personal experiences related to internet in any domain can easely demonstrate that there are more imaginary folks than real individuals. I easely understand that I can be seen as part of this fan club. Fortunately, I am not. I am new to this site that I found interesting for quite a lot of reasons. My goal is to let people know that I have REAL coins (over hundreds) that could be fortunate for the serious investor.

I am retired and getting old. I have no kids to give away the coins and what ‘s left from my family is far away to get something according to my point of view. My health is restricting me and I do not have time to auction. More, the serious individual that will show some interest; I will make the reasonable effort to make sure we are on the same goal. I am leaving in Toronto area and of course I do not have any intentions to send my coins’collection by mail.

Bill in Burl
Posts: 633
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am
Location: Golden Horseshoe, ONT

Re: 1 Cent 1859

Post by Bill in Burl » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:58 pm

I am a real person as well and have been collecting Victoria large cents for 40 years.... I have nearly 5000 Vickies, of which over 600 are 1859's. I have looked at 10's of thousands of Vict large cents because I, also, am lucky enough to live in the T.O. area and attend shows and auctions with great regularity.

Almost any oxidizing agent, intentional or not, will turn Canada large cents a yellowy brassy color .. from bleach to CLR to amonia to silver cleaner to any number of household detergents .. I have seen scores of them. You coin has been previously cleaned at some time (it didn't have to be from you) and the pits are from previous corrosion that has been cleaned off. Chemically, there is very little difference between what has been categorized as "brass" for the 1859's and the bronze. Whether brass or bronze, the copper percentage was still well above 90% (ideally 95%). What is considered "brass" 1859's resulted from improper mixing of the alloy to make the planchets or pouring from improper alloy mix from the top of the crucible tub when making the planchets. With the bronze in the post-1859 planchets at 4% tin and 1% zinc, the different densities of the mix ended up on the top of the caldron. Brass 1859's were not produced on purpose .. they were accidents. That is my opinion and that of the top 5-6 Victoria Large Cent experts that I am currently aware of (and I consider myself to be one of them). The generic term of "brass" leads people to think of cannon brass or ammo brass but, chemically, the percentages of copper and zinc for a metal to be classified as brass encompasses an extremely large range. The Royal mint was making their own pennies and half pennies previous to and after the Canadian Cents started and they were pure copper .. no alloy. When the Royal Mint agreed to make the Canadian Cents out of bronze, they had to contract out for a supplier to firnish the planchets. Because the planchets for the 1858's and 9's were 1/3 thinner than the Brit half-pennies and the same diameter, the stresses on the presses and dies was overwhelming. Dies broke at 1/10 the normal times experienced for the Brit coins and machinery failures were frequent. The inticate design of the Canadian Cent also led to numerous die failures because of the multiplied stress points. The Royal mint had their hands full with the minting of the Canada Cents. You will see that, after 1859, they started (for 1876) using planchets that were the same thickness as their own half-pennies ... 1/3 thicker than the 1859's and you don't see the delaminations later that you saw with the 1859's. There was NEVER any lead added to the alloy.

Your coin is bronze and has been previously cleaned. It's an 1859/8
Bill in Burl

CommonCents
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:10 am

Re: 1 Cent 1859

Post by CommonCents » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:03 pm

Wow! Sunopera. It certainly sounds like you have an extensive knowledge of metallurgy, would that be a fair assessment?

However in my most humble opinion, I would say from what Bill in Burl said in his assessment, he’s the man .
Bill you get a Wow! too. I'm humbled by your knowledge kind Sir and will not question it, also would like to refer to you if I should have more questions in the future, if I may? Glad I read your post :Étudiant: .
But, I do have a couple of theory's (let’s call it an exercise in thought) as to how Chemistry might have had a role in the colour. Unintentionally!
Two things
(1) that judging by its wear, it was well circulated, but a nice (VF). I suspect! So it has been out there for a will, sat for a will, then in someone’s pocket rubbed around for a bit, then lost into the floor crack and again who knows maybe a kid back in the day gave it a spit and a rub spit has acid, as Bill in Burl said, “been cleaned”.
(2)You said you found it in the old floor. Well back in those days it was common to us an old mop and us allot of possibly varieties of cleaners and combinations, back then what was domestic?, was whatever did the job and didn’t kill you on-the-spot, to clean the floor and probably used allot or even spilled buckets worth, then seeping through, coming in contact with the coin to give it, its colour!
Witch I think is real purdy and sat, over all these many years waiting for you to find it.
Just a theory!
I welcome enlightenment if needed.

I was hopping for you Sunopera but the W9 really gives it away, in my eyes was not clear enough before but with the new picture it is clearly not a Narrow 9 Brass as far as I know no Brass were made Wide 9.
Still a nice find! I look in cracks whenever I have a chance. :)

wangyin
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:44 am

Re: 1 Cent 1859

Post by wangyin » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:20 am

I advise one to acquire the coin certified, for all those people that certainly desire to market it. Sned it to ICCS.






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MyJuliet
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:11 am

Re: 1 Cent 1859

Post by MyJuliet » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:16 pm

I think I realise you mis-understood me, it was the (Obverse) of the coin I was asking about, a picture of the Queens bust side of the coin. A closer magnification of the 5 and 9 side (Reverse) also would be nice to see the multiple stamping,

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