PL to BU

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moneyhoney
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PL to BU

Post by moneyhoney » Fri May 05, 2023 7:59 am

Thanks to admin for replacing PL with BU. Although i agree with the bu definition you have given, I find BU to be an ambiguous term also. Brilliance certainly adds to a coins appeal and thus it's grade but what does it mean in terms of production differences. My experience has been that just because a coin comes from a set, that does not necessarily make it BU grad.
I go with 4 categories, circ, unc, sp, proof.

TBH
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Re: PL to BU

Post by TBH » Fri May 05, 2023 10:11 am

They did not do that.
Why are you spreading misinformation?

troubadour
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Re: PL to BU

Post by troubadour » Fri May 05, 2023 10:58 am

https://coinsandcanada.com/coins-prices ... -1990-2003

the misinformation term is abused these days..

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CanuckCoinGirl
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Re: PL to BU

Post by CanuckCoinGirl » Thu May 11, 2023 12:27 pm

Repeating my comments on a previous post - sorry to those that have seen this a few times now:

Regardless of what collectors or book writers indicate, for the RCM, there is no such thing as Proof-Like coins. The RCM indicates that they are only uncirculated and their uncirculated (or Brilliant Uncirculated, which is the term they do use) are no different than what is found in your pocket based on their production techniques. The benefit of cellophane packaging from the start keeps them untouched, but does not magically make them different. A sandwich brought to your table wrapped in film is not more gourmet than one brought on a plate without film because someone couldn't touch it, nor is it made differently. The packaging allows the RCM to have 'sets' for collectors, gifts, and nice objects for sale - mementos and special things - the premium price for them is not a result of having a different coin, but that they are packaged and value added is from the packaging.

There is the information on 1953 sets - the rare and odd set of coins packaged in paper holders. New dies were created for 1953 with the new Elizabeth Obverse coins and the RCM started seeing the value in producing more than the custom sets they had before. A number of the Mint Sets being sold by the RCM appear to have gotten a mix of coins, but mostly the sets are the business strike. Colonial Acres Auction House has a photo of the 'rare' type 1953 Mint Set that appears to have led to the the Proof-Like term, and there are a few others floating around, but the images look like some BU and Proof coins made it to the cardboard holders together. Generally, or more correctly -unfortunately, the PL term has been used for all the sets that were going to become more common with increase mintage from 1954 onward, which were untouched standard business strikes (with the RCM really starting its new enterprise of becoming a maker of coins for collectors and gift givers).

Proof-Like is a term that has been applied to the RCM coins, despite the process used indicating that it should not be. Let's be clear, the RCM does not use the term PL, and it really isn't correct for any of the uncirculated sets, with the 1953 exception. The uncirculated packaged coins are not added to rolls or moved, so they may have fewer marks on the rims and surfaces that are obvious, which collectors are quick to look for on really lovely uncirculated coins, but even these uncirculated coins can have marking from each other, being stacked, etc.. They should not have wear because of how they are packaged and, thus, should always be in mint state until removed from the film or touched directly. That said, the film is permeable and toning is possible. It's time to stop using PL for Canadian sets. Some years, the coins just look more stunning than other years because of the metals or the surface the images used. The uncirculated coins are part of overall circulation mintage.

Good quality die and the lack of fingers can leave the finishes lovely. These coins are not double struck intentionally. Any double strikes to the uncirculated sets that have been noted result from the same random errors that occur with what we see in circulated coins. Fast double strikes create errors in coins that can make them worth more for the circulation styles. For actual Proof coins with the mirror finish and textured relief, the die is polished and coins are double struck at low speeds to avoid movement of the blanks. Some of this information has morphed into descriptions of the PL coins, but is not how the RCM made their business strike coins. These actual Proof coins and some other RCM coins look different than the Brilliant Uncirculated and circulated coins (the latter two being the same) we might expect to see. Proof coins are carefully reviewed and errors should be removed prior to the packaging.

In 2020 the RCM released an uncirculated packaged set of stunning quarters - Numis-tastic - highlighting their only finishes: BU, SPECIMEN, PROOF, Reverse PROOF, and Matte PROOF. The RCM no longer can sell Numis-tastic sets directly, but Canadian coin dealers may still have some of these. They are lovely. Of course they have coloured coins, glow in the dark coins, relief, etc, that are built on these basic finishes. Different metals can also be used, which leads to different looks, but are still based on the same production processes.

The RCM has updated their website information and it is excellent on their productions for coin collectors.
https://www.mint.ca/store/mint/learn/th ... s-10600012 Here there is a video and details - and even discussion of the cellophane packaging. If you have not been to the RCM in Winnipeg or Ottawa, a tour is good- and there are virtual tours now too.

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CanuckCoinGirl
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Re: PL to BU

Post by CanuckCoinGirl » Thu May 11, 2023 12:33 pm

I do like that cac is now using a NBU instead of PL. The more people that stop using PL the faster the mint's actual designation will be used more.

moneyhoney
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Re: PL to BU

Post by moneyhoney » Thu May 11, 2023 2:03 pm

In the second last pargraph, it mentions that the only finishes are BU, SPEC, PROOF.......
so the BU must refer to all unc coins. Nowhere else in this article is BU mentioned.
IMO, PL and BU are marketing terms. If someone can tell me what proces separates a BU coin from an ms coin, i would appreciate it.

Bill in Burl
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Re: PL to BU

Post by Bill in Burl » Fri May 12, 2023 7:16 am

BU means brilliant uncirculated and MS means mint state. They are one and the same and the NBU just adds to the BU definition. The article is just trying to do away with the PL moniker.

In my mind, a "mint state" coin (MS) is naturally uncirculated. However, an uncirculated coin may not be mint state due to bag marks or incorrect handling at the mint. Just think of the two of them in the same breath.
Bill in Burl

moneyhoney
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Re: PL to BU

Post by moneyhoney » Fri May 12, 2023 10:33 am

Always brilliant but seldom uncirculated

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CanuckCoinGirl
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Re: PL to BU

Post by CanuckCoinGirl » Wed May 17, 2023 6:41 pm

moneyhoney wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 2:03 pm

IMO, PL and BU are marketing terms. If someone can tell me what proces separates a BU coin from an ms coin, i would appreciate it.
BU is definitely not a marketing term, but related to the way the Royal Canadian Mint defines just one of its selection of finishes. see here https://www.mint.ca/en/blog/whats-in-a-finish
The coins with this BU finish could be in the sets with the cellophane wrapping, the now harder plastic O'Canada sets etc. The NBU just indicates that the basic brilliant strikes were not put into the mint stream for circulation coins. These are the exact same coins as what you find in your pocket change in terms of everything except how they are handled after striking. When coins are meant to go into circulation, they get tossed into circlation bags/bins - leading to marks from coins banging into each other. Remember a bag of coins before they are set up in the newer circulation rolls the bank offers is heavy, so some dings can be pretty obvious. CAC using NBU is simply using a better term for what is not going into the circulation stream. But if you take the plastic off, you have circulation coins. Experts often can tell because there are no bag marks, and they are too perfect, so they have a different category for evaluation.

moneyhoney
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Re: PL to BU

Post by moneyhoney » Wed May 17, 2023 8:47 pm

Your article implies that the mint considers all circulation Strikes as BU.

moneyhoney
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Re: PL to BU

Post by moneyhoney » Wed May 17, 2023 8:49 pm

In 2020 the RCM released an uncirculated packaged set of stunning quarters - Numis-tastic - highlighting their only finishes: BU, SPECIMEN, PROOF, Reverse PROOF, and Matte PROOF.

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CanuckCoinGirl
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Re: PL to BU

Post by CanuckCoinGirl » Fri May 19, 2023 6:00 pm

moneyhoney wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 8:47 pm
Your article implies that the mint considers all circulation Strikes as BU.
It does.

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CanuckCoinGirl
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Re: PL to BU

Post by CanuckCoinGirl » Fri May 19, 2023 6:01 pm

moneyhoney wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 8:49 pm
In 2020 the RCM released an uncirculated packaged set of stunning quarters - Numis-tastic - highlighting their only finishes: BU, SPECIMEN, PROOF, Reverse PROOF, and Matte PROOF.
Indeed - the finishes posted in the link I provided are consistent with that.
I picked up a few of the Numis-tastic sets, but they are pretty hard to come by now.

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