1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Piepala80
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:51 am

1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by Piepala80 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:13 am

Can anyone tell me if this is a narrow 9 dp #3
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Bill in Burl
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Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by Bill in Burl » Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:00 am

I would need to see the whole coin in good fotog to see the other markers but, no, it's not a #3. Without seeing more, I would say that it's the nice repunched 9 that we put on p 286 of the 65th edition of Charlton on the Vicky varieties. The #3 has a unicorn corn coming out of the top right and the tail of the 9 can be seen greatly extended and repunched.

Here's the CaC page: https://www.coinsandcanada.com/coins-pr ... -1858-1859
Bill in Burl

Piepala80
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:51 am

Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by Piepala80 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:09 pm

Thanks bill. Is it still worth investing in.

Bill in Burl
Posts: 1469
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am
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Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by Bill in Burl » Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:52 pm

Well, we priced it at $200 Canadian when we did the Charlton. Yours looks that good or better. I think that I saw this coin on another site a little ways back. Yes, it would be a keeper if you find a nice price.
Bill in Burl

Piepala80
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:51 am

Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by Piepala80 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:37 pm

Yes it’s a high ms graded coin. I’ll keep you posted if I get it and what it will be graded at and noted which do it is.
Cheers

Bill in Burl
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am
Location: Golden Horseshoe, ONT

Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by Bill in Burl » Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:48 pm

If it's above an MS-60, it may be more than $2k Canadian
Bill in Burl

rjd65
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Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:09 am

Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by rjd65 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:03 pm

Hello. If I'm not mistaken, the die break appears to go through Leaf 10. When I consulted the Haxby Site, none of the reverses depicting a break through L10 match your image. This may be an unknown reverse or a later die state of a known reverse. Very interesting indeed. Are there any other die breaks passing through leaves on the reverse? If so, additional images would be great. Thanks, RD

Bill in Burl
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am
Location: Golden Horseshoe, ONT

Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by Bill in Burl » Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:05 am

The coin that we put on p 286 of the 2011 Charlton has a D/C at the 1st inside lobe of leaf 10. The Haxby site is not without problems or unrecorded die states or examples. You asked what the coin was and I told you, along with where to look for the picture proof. Believe what you want. It is NOT an unrecognized variety. I think that the coin that we listed in the 65th Charlton , and pictured, was one of MY coins. Your coin is just a later die state, with the die crack showing later on.

Here is an old link that has the Charlton to Haxby numbers. Yours is J5a, just like what's pictured in the 65th Charlton: https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/top ... 2&#3380617
Bill in Burl

Piepala80
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:51 am

Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by Piepala80 » Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:01 pm

Thanks bill but it wasn’t me that commented it’s an unrecognized coin. I’m waiting for more pictures as well to determine.
Thanks again

rjd65
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Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:09 am

Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by rjd65 » Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:51 pm

Undoubtedly the Haxby site has not captured all the known marriages but Randy does periodically update the information when he receives new info from collectors. So far it looks like about 253 of at least an absolute minimum of 297 (reverse dies apparently actually used) marriages have been identified. I'm skeptical of the theoretical max of 319 die marriages - I would not be surprised if the actual number of marriages identified exceeds this one day, probably not by much though. The year 1859 has always had avid collector interest over many decades and the internet era still encompasses a minority of that time. If the site is used to its potential, and enough people care, eventually a limit will be approached and the time between new discoveries will be measured in several years. We'll likely be long gone by then, assuming anyone is left who is interested in tracking these anymore. It is obvious this reverse is not on the site currently. In any case, the site continues to slowly progress with new discoveries, they just need collectors to share info. Piepala or Bill, if able, you may want to send images of this cent to Randy for inclusion on the 1859 Site. I have Randy's email if you require it. RD

Bill in Burl
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Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by Bill in Burl » Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:39 pm

rjd65 .... FYI, I sent Jim Haxby about 800 or so 1859's about 10 years ago so that he had more accurate input into the herculean project that he was attempting. He used some of my coins for his first crack at it with a different person who was 2nd in command, who has since moved to Utah from where he was from in Brooklyn. Now Phil310 (Randy) has taken over entering new and updated data for the last 5-6 years and I sent Randy another bunch of 600-700 or so a year or so ago. Most of them were in holders with my notes written on them from the Charlton project that 4-5 of us used for Bill Cross at Charlton back in 2010 when we wrote the 2011 edition. BTW, Randy has already ID'd the coin in question, but it is in a later die state, and NOT a new find (the D/C at 10 came later).

Phil310 used this last set of coins to update the Haxby info, find new die states, and locate new markers. He also went ahead and put Haxby numbers on all the coins that I sent him, as well as cross-referencing any Charlton numbers to Haxby numbers from that link in the thread above. I had XRF ID numbers on all of the holdered 1859 I sent Randy from the CNJ article that 3 of us wrote for the RCNA on ID'ing the brass 1859's, so I have the exact alloy compounds for almost all of those that I sent to Randy. I'm not a newbie to 1859's and had well over 1000 of them at one time. I have collected 1859's for well over 30 years and looked at 10's of thousands from coin shows here in Ontario. I've seen about all a person could possibly see for 1859's and freely give my opinions on them to folks who ask nicely. In closing "rjd", we have conversed before about Rob Turner's books and their accuracy and I gave you my staunch opinion of your efforts, so any more questions that you have or comments that you make will get no response from me.
Bill in Burl

rjd65
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Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by rjd65 » Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:21 pm

Thanks for enlightening me Bill. I have no doubt you have made significant contributions to the '1859 project', and for that many collectors are no doubt grateful. However, I'm skeptical by nature, and I'd still like to see additional images of this particular cent since IMHO I'm not convinced the date is the same as the J5a - the 9 appears different. Your comment; BTW, Randy has already ID'd the coin in question, but it is in a later die state, and NOT a new find (the D/C at 10 came later). is perplexing. If Randy has already ID'd the coin in question how can there not be a die break at L10 on this later die state coin? By default the die break would either; 1. Imply a even later die state of the coin in question OR, 2. Perhaps it is in fact a coin made from a different die.

Perhaps the image on the 1859 site is not ideal, and the coin you have is a better match. Since I don't have access to an image of that coin it is hard to make a definitive determination. As you well know, in die tracking more is better. Since it is very likely that undiscovered marriages still exist, it is not beyond the realm of possibility this cent is an unknown. I will be convinced it is a very late die state J5a once I see images of L3, L5, L11, L16.

You know Bill, I've enjoyed our interactions over the years. I'm sure we have provided some measure of reading entertainment for other members. I'd be lying if I said I didn't ever learn anything extremely useful and interesting from you. Ironically, the knowledge I have acquired from you and other sources has inspired my curiosity. I'm unsure if I ever mentioned this, but my father was a tool and die maker. When I worked with him at the plant for a couple summers, I vividly remember him conducting his skillful work. I learned a lot from him and I think his work is what makes me gravitate towards die tracking. Unfortunately, my efforts comes with a price, as painful as that may be to some, and that price is I seek accuracy and the truth. If I discover an inaccuracy and I can prove it is inaccurate, I will not keep that to myself and I certainly would not make any assertions unless I could prove it beyond reasonable doubt. Granted, this may offend delicate egos but that is irrelevant since I have no control over others reactions. Unfortunately, I have discovered some errors and/or omissions in Rob Tuner's die study work and other previously accepted facts by other authors. I do not take any pleasure from doing so, nor am I trying to make a name for myself. I simply enjoy the challenge of refining knowledge to make it as accurate as possible.

For a peek into my latest research, I can state with absolute certainty that far fewer than 1,540,000 1858 cents were minted. I've proven it, and no amount of die proration magic can alter my stance since I have undeniable data to back up the assertion. I understand why Charlton began publishing the incorrect figure. The early mintage of the PoC cents was undoubtedly fraught with issues and Mint staff were learning as they went. As a consequence, they consumed a relatively large quantity of 1858 reverse dies but that doesn't mean there must be direct relationship between overall mintage and die use as Turner's calculations infer. The average strikes per pair for 1858 was relatively low (some were relatively high, some were quite low). As Rob correctly points out, some 1858 cents are extremely scarce with some still not discovered. I would not be surprised if in the early stages of minting these cents only a few hundred were minted before catastrophic reverse die failure occurred. This means that some die pairs were effectively useless and cannot be considered in any mintage calculations. As the operators became comfortable with controlling the pressure of the press, several thousand were able to be minted before a die failed. As they moved into the 1859s they got proficient and the average strikes per pair generally increased, although there were undoubtedly some dies that still failed relatively early. That is why some 1859 N9 are very tough to find and others are quite common. I also disagree with the 8,150,000 figure for all the 1859s (including the 9/8). I can confirm that the Haxby figure is more accurate.

In summary, as my final gift to you, since you won't be communicating with me anymore, these are the probable mintage range limits for the PoC Cents (95% confidence level);

1858 __________600,000 - 421,000
1859/8 ________550,000 - 450,000
1859 ________8,500,000 - 8,900,000

Total_________9,650,000 - 9,771,000 (accepted mintage total for PoC cents is 9,690,000)

I cannot definitively rule out that the 421,000 mintage figure for 1858, a figure that was for many decades the published figure, is erroneous so I must still include it as the extreme lower bound. Vast collector interest for well over 100 years (the very early collectors knew these were keepers) has likely skewed the availability of 1858 upwards to some extent so the 421,000 figure could very well be accurate. Nevertheless, the ratio of 1859 N9:1858 is solid 15:1 and that alone prevents a mintage of 1,540,000 for 1858 to ever have been a reality. Even if it could be proven that a disproportionate quantity of 1858 were removed from circulation, which is highly unlikely, the 1.54 mintage figure is dis-ingenious and does not reflect the true scarcity of the 1858.

Bill in Burl
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Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by Bill in Burl » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:01 pm

rjd65 .. nice of you to answer, but you are just providing more of the same stuff I've heard from you before. You tear other folks' research apart and you probably hurt your arms by patting yourself on the back. Enjoy your collecting. BTW, my degrees are in Mechanical engineering and Physics and I supervised and ran 2 tool and die and machine shops, so don't feel so privileged.
Bill in Burl

rjd65
Posts: 106
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Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by rjd65 » Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:10 am

Interesting my son is a Mech Eng student just finishing his 3rd year. Well, if we are going to start beating our chests .......... I'm an Engineering grad as well (UWO). I'm also an Air Force Officer nearing retirement and the aircrew position I occupied on the multi-role aircraft required extreme concentration and attention to detail, sometimes at low level where the air isn't so smooth. When the weather was poor it was quite the experience. Most do not have the ability or perhaps the opportunity to serve in such a role. I do indeed feel privileged that I had the opportunity to prove I had what it takes.

As for 'tearing research apart', that is an exaggeration. However, prior research is 'torn apart' all the time by scientists and researchers if they have the evidence to back it up. As well, many of my responses have new content or details that I know were not communicated to you previously. Everything stated to you is evidence based. You, or others, may not appreciate any new revelations but that is irrelevant since it has absolutely no bearing on the truth. When ready the evidence will be presented one day in some format, TBD. Discouragement towards that goal will be ineffective.

Piepala80
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:51 am

Re: 1859 large cent narrow 9 variety

Post by Piepala80 » Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:00 pm

I believe it's a Catalog #PC59162 Die Pair 46a + J5a
Thanks Bill for the link. Here are Pictures.
It's a MS-63 BN
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